Interview with Leslie Holzhauser-Peters, CCC-SLP, & Leslie True
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Linda:Today I am interviewing Leslie Holzhauser-Peters and Leslie True, who are co-authors of a recently released book titled Making Sense of Children's Thinking and Behavior. I'm delighted to have you tell us about this book, which addresses children who have neurological differences. What perspect
Linda:Today I am interviewing Leslie Holzhauser-Peters and Leslie True, who are co-authors of a recently released book titled Making Sense of Children's Thinking and Behavior. I'm delighted to have you tell us about this book, which addresses children who have neurological differences. What perspective do you each bring to this book as authors?
Leslie Holzhauser-Peters:I'm a speech-language pathologist and I work as a speech-language supervisor. I've been working in the field for over 30 years. I have also worked as a consultant in curriculum in the areas of intervention, reading, writing, and English as a second language. I am an aunt to a niece diagnosed with NLD and to a nephew with Asperger's. I have worked with Joshua as his private speech-language since the summer of his third grade year.
Leslie True:My background as it pertains to the book is that my son Joshua has a nonverbal learning disability (NLD) and that had led me to Leslie Peters, who was working privately with Joshua. The perspective I bring to this book is as a parent.
Linda:I noticed the book is dedicated to Joshua, your son. The two of you met because of a professional/parent relationship but what caused you to write a book together?
Leslie T:Well, Leslie [HP} and I spent many, many hours talking about Joshua, what his issues were, and how his speech and language impacted his behavior. Joshua had many issues at school. He performed so well academically that it was really difficult for some school personnel to see that he had other problems. We began to write down what Joshua did that seemed unusual or atypical. Then we would describe the reasons we thought he had done what he did and how it related to his nonverbal learning disability. As a result, we came up with many, many, scenarios. This data collected was used to convince school personnel of the nature of his behavior.
Linda:You mention in the book that oftentimes children with a nonverbal learning disability are misunderstood. Define for our readers what a nonverbal learning disability is. What kinds of behaviors are you talking about?
Leslie HP:Actually we've written the book to address a wide range of behaviors due to neurological disorders, including Asperger Syndrome, high-functioning autism, pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), as well as nonverbal learning disabilitiesany kind of neurological behavior where the child thinks differently and the behavior results in him or her being misunderstood.
Linda:In the book you include scenarios describing Joshua's behaviors. You also describe a strategy to help understand the behaviors you have written about.
Leslie HP:Well, our strategy is simple. After talking so often and so long about Joshua, we realized we had a system for analyzing his behavior. But it was so common sense, it took us a while to realize that it was pretty systematic.
This step-by-step system revisits the behavior that occurred and then assesses the situation. The system requires hypothesizing why the behavior occurred. By looking at 12 possible reasons12 areas that describe why the child reacted the way he or she didthe professional or the parent analyzes what the child was thinking. And once a hypothesis is made, a plan of action is developed.
So it's really pretty simple, but it does take a lot of thinking. Sometimes you can make a hypothesis and maybe figure out later that the hypothesis wasn't correct, so you go back and rework the system.
Linda:The strategy you developed is called the Systematic Tool to Analyze Thinking or STAT. Give us an example of STAT applied to a "Joshua behavior."
Leslie True:One behavior I remember was when he stopped a childhe physically stopped a child from running because running is against the rules. And obviously his behavior caused an immediate problem with his peer as well as with his teacher who didn't appreciate him physically restraining the girl.
So in that situation, when Joshua came home, I heard the event described from Joshua's perspective that he had simply stopped a girl from running. However, the teacher reported he physically restrained a girl from running. From there, it took a lot of talking and walking through the exact steps of what happened to understand what really happenedI'd say, "Tell me what you did, tell me what she did, tell me..." I would ask very specific questions that he could answer. Sometimes I would get an accurate picture, sometimes I wouldn't.
In this instance, as Leslie and I worked through the STAT map, and we looked at the 12 categories to help us determine the cause of the behavior, we started to see the issue from Joshua's perspective. I think that's what the STAT map does. It puts you in the child's shoes and looks at the problem as he or she sees it.
So in this example, we realized Joshua was viewing the girl's running as "she's not obeying the rules, so she needs to stop what she's doing." His attempt to stop her was one of helpfulness and not one that would hurt her. He thought he was doing a good thing.
Linda:And once you analyzed that behavior using STAT, you hypothesized what his perspective was. What plan of action would you implement to help Joshua understand the situation?
Leslie True:The first thing for Joshua was to explain everybody else's perspective and how what he did appeared to them, what they might have thought, and how they might have felt.
He also needed to discuss what he should have done, what would have been better to do. And that discussion has to be very specific, what the behavior looks like, what he should have said, how he should have said it, his tone of voice, how his body should have been, that kind of thing.
After that, we talked about what he needed to do to try to repair the damage with his peers as well as with the teacher. It is important the initial behavior be understood as a behavior of caring or trying to help or trying to do the right thing. So many times he's misunderstood and his actions are viewed negatively.
Linda:A quote from the book. You say, "The only way to improve the quality of the child's life is to see the world through their eyes in order to help them maneuver through the minefield." I think that captures your point, that if we stop and take the perspective of the child, we'll see the behavior is not intentional misbehavior. Is that correct?
Leslie HP:Oh absolutely. I think that what we found more often than not is that the behavior is so often misunderstood. And I think ultimately that's why we decided to write the book. Our intent is to try to help people really understand how these children think. We truly think they wake up every day and walk into a field full of landmines which is called life for themand they don't really know when one is going to go off.
Linda:That's a perfect analogy.
Leslie True:I think the quote puts in perspective how scary it must be to not know when the next thing you do is really going to get you into trouble.
Linda:Hmmm.
Leslie True:And when it happens, a lot of times, Joshua is in total shock, because what he meant to do and the way it turned out is so different. Many times, he has no concept of what he's done.
Linda:Who would you say are the professionals or nonprofessionals who will find your book useful?
Leslie HP:We've really written it for both. I think our intent is that anybody who reads the book will get a new perspective about these children. We have districts in my region who are doing a book study with this book and they're all professionals. But we've also seen family members of children gain a new perspective and take a different look at their children. So we think the book could help people who are cafeteria workers, bus drivers, grandparents, or anybody who works with or loves children with neurological differences.
And we wrote the book to be simple enough so that anybody would be able to use it.
Linda:What one important point do you hope your readers will take away from this book?
Leslie HP:We want people to remember before they take action or punish a child, they should really consider why the child might have done what he or she has done. Before reacting, think about the situation and how the child perceived the particular situation.
Leslie True:I started to use this system with my other children as well. I think that no child wants to get in trouble and no child wants to fail and when you stop to think about why a child is doing something, it really changes your perspective on how you're going to address the situation.
Leslie HP:I think the other thing we want to say is that, you can punish these children but it really doesn't solve the problem. It won't change their behavior. If you don't come up with a different way to look at the problem, then you'll have the same problem that you've continued to have.
Our purpose is to help families and professionals teach children what to do instead.
Leslie HP:We hope people will pick the book up and share it with other people because our ultimate goal is to make the lives of children with neurological issues better. And the more people who understand the child, the more you can enjoy the child. If you start to look at the child's behavior in a totally different way, you can find joy instead of upset.
Linda:That's a nice message. For anyone interested in learning more about the STAT strategy and purchasing the book, visit the Jessica Kingsley website www.jkp.com/
Leslie HP:And they can find it on www.Amazon.com
Linda:Leslie and Leslie, I appreciate that you both took the time today to be interviewed. Thank you so much. Best wishes to you both and to Joshua.
Leslie Holzhauser-Peters:I'm a speech-language pathologist and I work as a speech-language supervisor. I've been working in the field for over 30 years. I have also worked as a consultant in curriculum in the areas of intervention, reading, writing, and English as a second language. I am an aunt to a niece diagnosed with NLD and to a nephew with Asperger's. I have worked with Joshua as his private speech-language since the summer of his third grade year.Leslie True:My background as it pertains to the book is that my son Joshua has a nonverbal learning disability (NLD) and that had led me to Leslie Peters, who was working privately with Joshua. The perspective I bring to this book is as a parent.
Linda:I noticed the book is dedicated to Joshua, your son. The two of you met because of a professional/parent relationship but what caused you to write a book together?
Leslie T:Well, Leslie [HP} and I spent many, many hours talking about Joshua, what his issues were, and how his speech and language impacted his behavior. Joshua had many issues at school. He performed so well academically that it was really difficult for some school personnel to see that he had other problems. We began to write down what Joshua did that seemed unusual or atypical. Then we would describe the reasons we thought he had done what he did and how it related to his nonverbal learning disability. As a result, we came up with many, many, scenarios. This data collected was used to convince school personnel of the nature of his behavior. Linda:You mention in the book that oftentimes children with a nonverbal learning disability are misunderstood. Define for our readers what a nonverbal learning disability is. What kinds of behaviors are you talking about?
Leslie HP:Actually we've written the book to address a wide range of behaviors due to neurological disorders, including Asperger Syndrome, high-functioning autism, pervasive developmental disorder-not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), as well as nonverbal learning disabilitiesany kind of neurological behavior where the child thinks differently and the behavior results in him or her being misunderstood.
Linda:In the book you include scenarios describing Joshua's behaviors. You also describe a strategy to help understand the behaviors you have written about. Leslie HP:Well, our strategy is simple. After talking so often and so long about Joshua, we realized we had a system for analyzing his behavior. But it was so common sense, it took us a while to realize that it was pretty systematic.
This step-by-step system revisits the behavior that occurred and then assesses the situation. The system requires hypothesizing why the behavior occurred. By looking at 12 possible reasons12 areas that describe why the child reacted the way he or she didthe professional or the parent analyzes what the child was thinking. And once a hypothesis is made, a plan of action is developed.
So it's really pretty simple, but it does take a lot of thinking. Sometimes you can make a hypothesis and maybe figure out later that the hypothesis wasn't correct, so you go back and rework the system.
Linda:The strategy you developed is called the Systematic Tool to Analyze Thinking or STAT. Give us an example of STAT applied to a "Joshua behavior."
Leslie True:One behavior I remember was when he stopped a childhe physically stopped a child from running because running is against the rules. And obviously his behavior caused an immediate problem with his peer as well as with his teacher who didn't appreciate him physically restraining the girl.
So in that situation, when Joshua came home, I heard the event described from Joshua's perspective that he had simply stopped a girl from running. However, the teacher reported he physically restrained a girl from running. From there, it took a lot of talking and walking through the exact steps of what happened to understand what really happenedI'd say, "Tell me what you did, tell me what she did, tell me..." I would ask very specific questions that he could answer. Sometimes I would get an accurate picture, sometimes I wouldn't.
In this instance, as Leslie and I worked through the STAT map, and we looked at the 12 categories to help us determine the cause of the behavior, we started to see the issue from Joshua's perspective. I think that's what the STAT map does. It puts you in the child's shoes and looks at the problem as he or she sees it.
So in this example, we realized Joshua was viewing the girl's running as "she's not obeying the rules, so she needs to stop what she's doing." His attempt to stop her was one of helpfulness and not one that would hurt her. He thought he was doing a good thing.
Linda:And once you analyzed that behavior using STAT, you hypothesized what his perspective was. What plan of action would you implement to help Joshua understand the situation?
Leslie True:The first thing for Joshua was to explain everybody else's perspective and how what he did appeared to them, what they might have thought, and how they might have felt.
He also needed to discuss what he should have done, what would have been better to do. And that discussion has to be very specific, what the behavior looks like, what he should have said, how he should have said it, his tone of voice, how his body should have been, that kind of thing.
After that, we talked about what he needed to do to try to repair the damage with his peers as well as with the teacher. It is important the initial behavior be understood as a behavior of caring or trying to help or trying to do the right thing. So many times he's misunderstood and his actions are viewed negatively.
Linda:A quote from the book. You say, "The only way to improve the quality of the child's life is to see the world through their eyes in order to help them maneuver through the minefield." I think that captures your point, that if we stop and take the perspective of the child, we'll see the behavior is not intentional misbehavior. Is that correct?
Leslie HP:Oh absolutely. I think that what we found more often than not is that the behavior is so often misunderstood. And I think ultimately that's why we decided to write the book. Our intent is to try to help people really understand how these children think. We truly think they wake up every day and walk into a field full of landmines which is called life for themand they don't really know when one is going to go off.
Linda:That's a perfect analogy.
Leslie True:I think the quote puts in perspective how scary it must be to not know when the next thing you do is really going to get you into trouble.
Linda:Hmmm.
Leslie True:And when it happens, a lot of times, Joshua is in total shock, because what he meant to do and the way it turned out is so different. Many times, he has no concept of what he's done.
Linda:Who would you say are the professionals or nonprofessionals who will find your book useful?
Leslie HP:We've really written it for both. I think our intent is that anybody who reads the book will get a new perspective about these children. We have districts in my region who are doing a book study with this book and they're all professionals. But we've also seen family members of children gain a new perspective and take a different look at their children. So we think the book could help people who are cafeteria workers, bus drivers, grandparents, or anybody who works with or loves children with neurological differences.
And we wrote the book to be simple enough so that anybody would be able to use it.
Linda:What one important point do you hope your readers will take away from this book?
Leslie HP:We want people to remember before they take action or punish a child, they should really consider why the child might have done what he or she has done. Before reacting, think about the situation and how the child perceived the particular situation.
Leslie True:I started to use this system with my other children as well. I think that no child wants to get in trouble and no child wants to fail and when you stop to think about why a child is doing something, it really changes your perspective on how you're going to address the situation.
Leslie HP:I think the other thing we want to say is that, you can punish these children but it really doesn't solve the problem. It won't change their behavior. If you don't come up with a different way to look at the problem, then you'll have the same problem that you've continued to have.
Our purpose is to help families and professionals teach children what to do instead.
Leslie HP:We hope people will pick the book up and share it with other people because our ultimate goal is to make the lives of children with neurological issues better. And the more people who understand the child, the more you can enjoy the child. If you start to look at the child's behavior in a totally different way, you can find joy instead of upset.
Linda:That's a nice message. For anyone interested in learning more about the STAT strategy and purchasing the book, visit the Jessica Kingsley website www.jkp.com/
Leslie HP:And they can find it on www.Amazon.com
Linda:Leslie and Leslie, I appreciate that you both took the time today to be interviewed. Thank you so much. Best wishes to you both and to Joshua.