Interview with Carol Westby, Ph.D., CCC-SLP
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Linda Schreiber: This morning I'm visiting with Carol Westby, who at the recent American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (ASHA) convention in Boston, received the highest honor awarded by ASHA.Good morning Carol.Carol Westby: Good morning Linda.Linda: Carol, you have done so much for children an
Linda Schreiber: This morning I'm visiting with Carol Westby, who at the recent American Speech-Language-Hearing Association (ASHA) convention in Boston, received the highest honor awarded by ASHA.
Good morning Carol.
Carol Westby: Good morning Linda.
Linda: Carol, you have done so much for children and for our profession; you are most deserving of the Honors of the ASHA Association. On behalf of SpeechPathology.com and our readers, congratulations!
Carol: Thank you.
Linda: You have been so very dedicated to our profession. I am curiousand our readers might be tooin how you got started in a career in speech-language pathology. Something tells me you started in another profession.
Carol: I did!
Carol: I guess it's my early experiences that set me up for what I felt I should be doing and how I should be doing it. I came from a family where my mother only went to third grade and then she was sent to work because she was the oldest child. So from the time she was a youngster, she worked. When I was born, our next door neighbor was an Italian immigrant family, and their youngestFrannywas 12 years older than I. She treated me kind of like her baby sister and when she went to college, she wrote to me. From that time, I knew I would go to college.
From early on, Franny knew she wanted to go to collegeand it wasn't typical for a girl from our neighborhood to go to collegebut she told her mother what she wanted and her mother said, "If that's what you want, that's what will happen."
So Franny was my inspiration. She was a science major. She wrote to me. She sent me books. She sent me a children's version of Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. And so I knew I was going to be a scientist.
And my mother, who had very limited reading skills but who was always supportive of my reading, introduced me to the librarian in the town where she worked. And for years, my mother would stop every couple weeks at the library and the librarian would have picked out books for me. There were always threeone was always a classic novel (like Don Quixote and The Scarlet Letter) and one was always a science book. By the time I got to high school, I was determined I was going be like Franny, and so I did really well in science. And in high school, my science teacher asked if I wanted to take the national test to compete to go to science camp. I did. I took the test and was invited to go to summer science camp at Geneva College along with 14 others from around the country (with all expenses paid).
Linda: What a wonderful experience for you.
Carol: I got invited back the next year toomainly because they only had one girl who qualified that year. The first year I was there, there were only two girls13 boys and two girls in science camp. And science camp was a six- or eight-week experience where we did the actual research projects that the professors were doing. We were kind of like graduate students; we carried out the professors' projects and maintained the notebooks.
Linda: So you were about a sophomore or junior in high school?
Carol: Yes. And then when I graduated, Geneva College gave me a little scholarship and gave me a job as the secretary to the chemistry chair. And so I started there as a chemistry major.
Linda: A chemistry major! Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Carol: And then I had a phenomenal English professor. I still don't quite remember how it came about, but the dean of women was a speech-language pathologist. And even though there wasn't a speech pathology program at Geneva, she began teaching courses. And it seemed to me that speech pathology was a combination of science and literature. And that's how I ended up going that directionspeech pathology was a blend. She helped me get into graduate school at Iowa.
Linda: So that's how it started! And you still enjoy the marriage of speech-language pathology, science, and literature because you are still a researcher, a clinician, and a writer.
Carol: And I really appreciate and value having that broad background.
Linda: Your contributions to our field are also broad. I think of all of the different topics you have taught us about, like assessment of cognition, language, and play; narrative assessment and the stages of children's narratives; multicultural issues; and autism. You have delved into so many areas of development and taught us so much over the years. Of those, which is your real passion?
Carol: I tend to get really excited about whatever I'm doing at the time, and what has to be done.
The play scale got started after I graduated from Iowa and was in my first paid clinical position at an Association for Retarded Citizen's program. The theory then was that if an individual was mentally retarded (the term used at that time), there really wasn't much you could do about their speech and language and so you didn't work with them. When PL 94-142 was passed, children from these facilitieschildren who had multiple disabilities or cognitive impairmentswere moved into the public schools and we had to figure out what to do with them. I started reading a lot about development and play. We would play and I would observe and keep notes. And that was the beginning of the play scale. It came about because I was working with children for whom I had no training and in fact was told that there was nothing I could do for those youngsters.
So you asked what my passion was about and clearly in the late 70s it was play. And in New Mexico, it became a part of the assessments that are still used. Then I moved on to multicultural issues, literacy, autism, and ADHD. The last two to three years I'm really back to the topic of play a lot. And that's because of what's happened with No Child Left Behind. In New Mexico, they've torn out all the play areas in the kindergarten classrooms, because kids have to learn to read. Most schools have done away with recess, other than noon recess, because they believe the children need more time on tasks.
Linda: Oh my.
Carol: And I've looking at what it takes for children to really be creative learners, to develop dynamic literacywhich is the ability to comprehend and integrate multiple sources of information. And that's how I've come back to the play scales. I reorganized how I use it. I've been consulting with the New Mexico Preschool for the Deaf that uses the play scale. The staff use play to develop the language and thinking skills that children need for text comprehension. And the number of requests for play workshops I've received this last year has been amazing. People are realizing that decoding isn't enough.
So right now I'm back to the play scale. This is where I started my career.
Linda: The pendulum swings, doesn't it?
Carol: It does, it sure does.
Linda: Everything I have read by you is easy to understand and follow. That's the beauty of what you do. You are able to wear a researcher hat but then also show us how to teach meaningfully.
You must have a favorite story about a life you've touched or a meaningful change in someone's life that has stuck with you.
Carol: Well, we've had kids through Big Brothers for so many years. My husband and I got together because we were both involved with the Big Brothers program when we were in graduate school. My degree was in speech pathology and his was in pharmacy. After we graduated from Iowa and married, we moved to New York. We were looking for volunteer work. I called a number for Urban Ministry, which led me to Sister Mary Jane. I told Sister Mary Jane I happened to be a speech pathologist and she said, "That's just what I've been praying for." She had just opened Unity House, which was to meet some of the needs of the inner city poor (e.g., food, clothing, transportation, assistance dealing with landlords). Unity House was in an old tenement building in Troy, New Yorkkind of the classic inner-city, horrendous tenement building with windows broken, stairs broken outshe had talked an absentee landlord into giving her one of these tenements and she got local college students to put it back together.
When we got there, she took me next door and introduced me to Jo Jo. And she said, "You can't understand anything he says." I wondered if he could hear. Well, the convent had an audiometer, so off we went to check his hearing. I said, "Yeah, he can't hear." So Mary Jane found someone to buy him hearing aids. And from that point, she roamed around Troy finding kids she couldn't understand and brought them to me. And that was the beginning of the Unity House Developmental Communications Program. Unity House now is a major social service agency in that whole county. They provide the early intervention services for all of Rensselaer County. And that got started with Sister Mary Jane running around town finding kids that couldn't talk.
Linda: That's a great story!
Carol: And Jo Jo had been in what they called at that time, a class for trainable mentally retarded children. He was there because he couldn't understand you. And the policy was not to test hearing in this population so his hearing had never been checked.
I got him out of that class and into a class for the hearing impaired. Two years ago I ran into Mark Gore, who had been Jo Jo's teacher. Sister Mary Jane rounded up these kidsa number of them were hearing impairedshe got them tested, and Mark Gore, with only a bachelor's degree in speech pathology, taught them in this class.
It turns out that Mark's now the Dean of the College of Education at George Mason University. We ended up together on a trip to China a couple years ago. He recognized me. He said it was that class that inspired him to go on because he was so upset he couldn't give the kids enough. He went on to get his Masters degree and later a Ph.D.
Linda: And he's now making even greater impact in even more lives I'm sure.
So what's next on your horizon, Carol? I know you're currently conducting research as a Visiting Professor at Brigham Young University.
Carol: Yes, and I've decided I like this "Visiting Professor" bit. I wouldn't mind doing more of that and I am keeping my eyes open for more opportunities. It's been nice; I'm able to do the things I'm good at and able to share my knowledge, and I don't have all of the committee meetings, etc. to deal with.
Linda: You've got the best of all worlds!
Carol: Brigham Young has asked me to stay one more term.
Last spring I provided consultation to a program in Singapore with 400 children who have autism. Singapore provides no special education services for children so services are provided privately. This program was started by a parent, who has a child with autism, and an expatriate speech-language pathologist from Australia. They brought me to Australia because they have a program for school-age kids, but the children have to pass literacy exams in English. I was brought out to give suggestions for how they can get children with Asperger syndrome and high-functioning autism to pass the literacy exams. I'm hoping to get back.
Or maybe I will continue some work in Australia. I was in Australia last fall and worked in a school for new arrival children. This was a phenomenal school with children "fresh off the boat"-children from East Africa who had been in refugee camps, who have no history of any formal education, and who are kind of just surviving and used to fighting for food. I'd like to get back there too.
I'm testing perfect positions.
Linda: It sounds like a wonderful way to share your knowledgeto be a visiting professor and to share so much around the world.
Carol: Yes.
Linda: Carol, what's your message for students who are just entering our profession?
Carol: My message is to go into this field because you thoroughly enjoy what you're doing. And expect to be constantly learning; there's so much that's continuing to happen. It's like putting puzzles together; you're constantly solving puzzles. I hope for new people that they go into this field because of the excitementthe excitement of making a difference in the lives of individuals. Giving people the ability to communicate is the most human thing we can do.
Linda: It is.
Carol: ...And doing it because they know how valuable it is, because they love it, and because they have the expertise to do it. They have to know to always keep learning so they're on top of doing the best for the individuals they're working with.
Linda: That's wonderful advice.
Linda: Carol, many of our readers don't know about your "quacky" side. You live in New Mexico and have had quite a few "quacky" friends. Tell us about Sprint, your newest little quacker.
Carol: Well, Sprint is doing well. Let me tell you first about Mocha. Mocha was my early duck. Mocha taught me about duck communication and culture. Mocha was the duck who helped me understand that even though I speak "quack," it's not enough to understand cultureyou have to observe, you have to understand the values, the beliefs, and the orientation of others. And I learned that from Mocha. When Mocha was five months old, he showed this real interest in me. He would come up and bob his head and I thought he had a sore throat or something, so I took him to the vet and found that Mocha Duck was Mocha Drake and he was sexually mature. And bobbing heads was how ducks propositioned their mates. Serious miscommunication! I always tell people I could speak "quack," and I knew that when Mocha wanted to go in, he would go "Muck, muck, muck" slowly and very loudlyand that meant "Let me in the house." And I knew that when I heard "Muck, muck, muck, muck, muck" quacked very quickly and more softly, it meant he had just seen a nice big, black, New Mexican cockroach, and they are like chocolate chips to a duck. And so I spoke quack but I seriously misinterpreted his behavior since I looked at it from my perspective.
Mocha really helped me understand that you have to see the situation through the eyes of the individual. Sprint is our current duck. Sprint is an Indian Runner Duck. When we got him, I got him specifically to make a point: you shouldn't overgeneralize his duck abilities. Don't assume that because he's a duck, he's going to do everything like a duck. Indian Runner Ducks do not waddle. When he was five weeks old, he began to fall back on his haunches and his little legs and feet would go up in the air. This time, I headed to the Internet (I didn't rush to the vet immediately like I did with Mocha). I emailed InternationalRunnerDuck.net, and I typed in his symptoms. The e-mail came back with the response that yes, this is a problem with Runner Ducks. Because of their body structure, they have to be exercised or they will lose the ability to walk.
Linda: Who would have guessed!
Carol: So from the time he was five weeks old, he has his daily walk around the park. And in the workshops I do, I have a video clip of him, to make the point that he's a duck; he quacks like a duck; but don't stereotype him, don't overgeneralize, because he does not waddle like a duck, he runs.
Linda: I'm glad you shared that wonderful analogy.
Linda: Carol, some people have referred to you as a national treasure, and I heartily agree except to say that you are really an international treasure! Congratulations again from all of us! And thank you for sharing a bit of your life with us this morning.
Good morning Carol.
Carol Westby: Good morning Linda.
Linda: Carol, you have done so much for children and for our profession; you are most deserving of the Honors of the ASHA Association. On behalf of SpeechPathology.com and our readers, congratulations!
Carol: Thank you.
Linda: You have been so very dedicated to our profession. I am curiousand our readers might be tooin how you got started in a career in speech-language pathology. Something tells me you started in another profession.
Carol: I did!
Carol: I guess it's my early experiences that set me up for what I felt I should be doing and how I should be doing it. I came from a family where my mother only went to third grade and then she was sent to work because she was the oldest child. So from the time she was a youngster, she worked. When I was born, our next door neighbor was an Italian immigrant family, and their youngestFrannywas 12 years older than I. She treated me kind of like her baby sister and when she went to college, she wrote to me. From that time, I knew I would go to college.
From early on, Franny knew she wanted to go to collegeand it wasn't typical for a girl from our neighborhood to go to collegebut she told her mother what she wanted and her mother said, "If that's what you want, that's what will happen."
So Franny was my inspiration. She was a science major. She wrote to me. She sent me books. She sent me a children's version of Rachel Carson's Silent Spring. And so I knew I was going to be a scientist.
And my mother, who had very limited reading skills but who was always supportive of my reading, introduced me to the librarian in the town where she worked. And for years, my mother would stop every couple weeks at the library and the librarian would have picked out books for me. There were always threeone was always a classic novel (like Don Quixote and The Scarlet Letter) and one was always a science book. By the time I got to high school, I was determined I was going be like Franny, and so I did really well in science. And in high school, my science teacher asked if I wanted to take the national test to compete to go to science camp. I did. I took the test and was invited to go to summer science camp at Geneva College along with 14 others from around the country (with all expenses paid).
Linda: What a wonderful experience for you.
Carol: I got invited back the next year toomainly because they only had one girl who qualified that year. The first year I was there, there were only two girls13 boys and two girls in science camp. And science camp was a six- or eight-week experience where we did the actual research projects that the professors were doing. We were kind of like graduate students; we carried out the professors' projects and maintained the notebooks.
Linda: So you were about a sophomore or junior in high school?
Carol: Yes. And then when I graduated, Geneva College gave me a little scholarship and gave me a job as the secretary to the chemistry chair. And so I started there as a chemistry major.
Linda: A chemistry major! Somehow that doesn't surprise me.
Carol: And then I had a phenomenal English professor. I still don't quite remember how it came about, but the dean of women was a speech-language pathologist. And even though there wasn't a speech pathology program at Geneva, she began teaching courses. And it seemed to me that speech pathology was a combination of science and literature. And that's how I ended up going that directionspeech pathology was a blend. She helped me get into graduate school at Iowa.
Linda: So that's how it started! And you still enjoy the marriage of speech-language pathology, science, and literature because you are still a researcher, a clinician, and a writer.
Carol: And I really appreciate and value having that broad background.
Linda: Your contributions to our field are also broad. I think of all of the different topics you have taught us about, like assessment of cognition, language, and play; narrative assessment and the stages of children's narratives; multicultural issues; and autism. You have delved into so many areas of development and taught us so much over the years. Of those, which is your real passion?
Carol: I tend to get really excited about whatever I'm doing at the time, and what has to be done.
The play scale got started after I graduated from Iowa and was in my first paid clinical position at an Association for Retarded Citizen's program. The theory then was that if an individual was mentally retarded (the term used at that time), there really wasn't much you could do about their speech and language and so you didn't work with them. When PL 94-142 was passed, children from these facilitieschildren who had multiple disabilities or cognitive impairmentswere moved into the public schools and we had to figure out what to do with them. I started reading a lot about development and play. We would play and I would observe and keep notes. And that was the beginning of the play scale. It came about because I was working with children for whom I had no training and in fact was told that there was nothing I could do for those youngsters.
So you asked what my passion was about and clearly in the late 70s it was play. And in New Mexico, it became a part of the assessments that are still used. Then I moved on to multicultural issues, literacy, autism, and ADHD. The last two to three years I'm really back to the topic of play a lot. And that's because of what's happened with No Child Left Behind. In New Mexico, they've torn out all the play areas in the kindergarten classrooms, because kids have to learn to read. Most schools have done away with recess, other than noon recess, because they believe the children need more time on tasks.
Linda: Oh my.
Carol: And I've looking at what it takes for children to really be creative learners, to develop dynamic literacywhich is the ability to comprehend and integrate multiple sources of information. And that's how I've come back to the play scales. I reorganized how I use it. I've been consulting with the New Mexico Preschool for the Deaf that uses the play scale. The staff use play to develop the language and thinking skills that children need for text comprehension. And the number of requests for play workshops I've received this last year has been amazing. People are realizing that decoding isn't enough.
So right now I'm back to the play scale. This is where I started my career.
Linda: The pendulum swings, doesn't it?
Carol: It does, it sure does.
Linda: Everything I have read by you is easy to understand and follow. That's the beauty of what you do. You are able to wear a researcher hat but then also show us how to teach meaningfully.
You must have a favorite story about a life you've touched or a meaningful change in someone's life that has stuck with you.
Carol: Well, we've had kids through Big Brothers for so many years. My husband and I got together because we were both involved with the Big Brothers program when we were in graduate school. My degree was in speech pathology and his was in pharmacy. After we graduated from Iowa and married, we moved to New York. We were looking for volunteer work. I called a number for Urban Ministry, which led me to Sister Mary Jane. I told Sister Mary Jane I happened to be a speech pathologist and she said, "That's just what I've been praying for." She had just opened Unity House, which was to meet some of the needs of the inner city poor (e.g., food, clothing, transportation, assistance dealing with landlords). Unity House was in an old tenement building in Troy, New Yorkkind of the classic inner-city, horrendous tenement building with windows broken, stairs broken outshe had talked an absentee landlord into giving her one of these tenements and she got local college students to put it back together.
When we got there, she took me next door and introduced me to Jo Jo. And she said, "You can't understand anything he says." I wondered if he could hear. Well, the convent had an audiometer, so off we went to check his hearing. I said, "Yeah, he can't hear." So Mary Jane found someone to buy him hearing aids. And from that point, she roamed around Troy finding kids she couldn't understand and brought them to me. And that was the beginning of the Unity House Developmental Communications Program. Unity House now is a major social service agency in that whole county. They provide the early intervention services for all of Rensselaer County. And that got started with Sister Mary Jane running around town finding kids that couldn't talk.
Linda: That's a great story!
Carol: And Jo Jo had been in what they called at that time, a class for trainable mentally retarded children. He was there because he couldn't understand you. And the policy was not to test hearing in this population so his hearing had never been checked.
I got him out of that class and into a class for the hearing impaired. Two years ago I ran into Mark Gore, who had been Jo Jo's teacher. Sister Mary Jane rounded up these kidsa number of them were hearing impairedshe got them tested, and Mark Gore, with only a bachelor's degree in speech pathology, taught them in this class.
It turns out that Mark's now the Dean of the College of Education at George Mason University. We ended up together on a trip to China a couple years ago. He recognized me. He said it was that class that inspired him to go on because he was so upset he couldn't give the kids enough. He went on to get his Masters degree and later a Ph.D.
Linda: And he's now making even greater impact in even more lives I'm sure.
So what's next on your horizon, Carol? I know you're currently conducting research as a Visiting Professor at Brigham Young University.
Carol: Yes, and I've decided I like this "Visiting Professor" bit. I wouldn't mind doing more of that and I am keeping my eyes open for more opportunities. It's been nice; I'm able to do the things I'm good at and able to share my knowledge, and I don't have all of the committee meetings, etc. to deal with.
Linda: You've got the best of all worlds!
Carol: Brigham Young has asked me to stay one more term.
Last spring I provided consultation to a program in Singapore with 400 children who have autism. Singapore provides no special education services for children so services are provided privately. This program was started by a parent, who has a child with autism, and an expatriate speech-language pathologist from Australia. They brought me to Australia because they have a program for school-age kids, but the children have to pass literacy exams in English. I was brought out to give suggestions for how they can get children with Asperger syndrome and high-functioning autism to pass the literacy exams. I'm hoping to get back.
Or maybe I will continue some work in Australia. I was in Australia last fall and worked in a school for new arrival children. This was a phenomenal school with children "fresh off the boat"-children from East Africa who had been in refugee camps, who have no history of any formal education, and who are kind of just surviving and used to fighting for food. I'd like to get back there too.
I'm testing perfect positions.
Linda: It sounds like a wonderful way to share your knowledgeto be a visiting professor and to share so much around the world.
Carol: Yes.
Linda: Carol, what's your message for students who are just entering our profession?
Carol: My message is to go into this field because you thoroughly enjoy what you're doing. And expect to be constantly learning; there's so much that's continuing to happen. It's like putting puzzles together; you're constantly solving puzzles. I hope for new people that they go into this field because of the excitementthe excitement of making a difference in the lives of individuals. Giving people the ability to communicate is the most human thing we can do.
Linda: It is.
Carol: ...And doing it because they know how valuable it is, because they love it, and because they have the expertise to do it. They have to know to always keep learning so they're on top of doing the best for the individuals they're working with.
Linda: That's wonderful advice.
Linda: Carol, many of our readers don't know about your "quacky" side. You live in New Mexico and have had quite a few "quacky" friends. Tell us about Sprint, your newest little quacker.
Carol: Well, Sprint is doing well. Let me tell you first about Mocha. Mocha was my early duck. Mocha taught me about duck communication and culture. Mocha was the duck who helped me understand that even though I speak "quack," it's not enough to understand cultureyou have to observe, you have to understand the values, the beliefs, and the orientation of others. And I learned that from Mocha. When Mocha was five months old, he showed this real interest in me. He would come up and bob his head and I thought he had a sore throat or something, so I took him to the vet and found that Mocha Duck was Mocha Drake and he was sexually mature. And bobbing heads was how ducks propositioned their mates. Serious miscommunication! I always tell people I could speak "quack," and I knew that when Mocha wanted to go in, he would go "Muck, muck, muck" slowly and very loudlyand that meant "Let me in the house." And I knew that when I heard "Muck, muck, muck, muck, muck" quacked very quickly and more softly, it meant he had just seen a nice big, black, New Mexican cockroach, and they are like chocolate chips to a duck. And so I spoke quack but I seriously misinterpreted his behavior since I looked at it from my perspective.
Mocha really helped me understand that you have to see the situation through the eyes of the individual. Sprint is our current duck. Sprint is an Indian Runner Duck. When we got him, I got him specifically to make a point: you shouldn't overgeneralize his duck abilities. Don't assume that because he's a duck, he's going to do everything like a duck. Indian Runner Ducks do not waddle. When he was five weeks old, he began to fall back on his haunches and his little legs and feet would go up in the air. This time, I headed to the Internet (I didn't rush to the vet immediately like I did with Mocha). I emailed InternationalRunnerDuck.net, and I typed in his symptoms. The e-mail came back with the response that yes, this is a problem with Runner Ducks. Because of their body structure, they have to be exercised or they will lose the ability to walk.
Linda: Who would have guessed!
Carol: So from the time he was five weeks old, he has his daily walk around the park. And in the workshops I do, I have a video clip of him, to make the point that he's a duck; he quacks like a duck; but don't stereotype him, don't overgeneralize, because he does not waddle like a duck, he runs.
Linda: I'm glad you shared that wonderful analogy.
Linda: Carol, some people have referred to you as a national treasure, and I heartily agree except to say that you are really an international treasure! Congratulations again from all of us! And thank you for sharing a bit of your life with us this morning.